I would think my goal would be to ... make sure the code was as complex as possible ... so that nobody would ever want to spend any amount of time working on the code ...They have several other things to say about open source software development (including releasing updates "as often as possible") and criticizing a widely-used application framework for being slow (based on just a "hello world" example). The upside of blogging is that everyone gets to say their piece in public. The downside of blogging is that everyone gets to say their piece in public. At least they have the decency to say "I am no expert when it comes to Open Source Development" - as if that wasn't obvious. It's rare that I "roast" anyone in public and very rare that I do it on my blog but this particular blog has been little more than an advertising campaign for a piece of software they produced (almost every single post mentions it - and it appears in all the RSS feeds). This sort of behavior does our community no favors at all.
How not to develop Open Source Software?
January 16, 2006 · 92 Comments
A certain CFer's blog just posted some thoughts on how they would develop open source software:
Tags: blogging
92 responses so far ↓
1 Phil Douglas // Jan 16, 2006 at 7:42 PM
2 john Wilker // Jan 16, 2006 at 8:02 PM
3 Paul Kenney // Jan 16, 2006 at 8:35 PM
4 Steve Collins // Jan 16, 2006 at 9:37 PM
5 Brad // Jan 16, 2006 at 10:15 PM
6 Dave Ross // Jan 16, 2006 at 10:18 PM
7 jim collins // Jan 16, 2006 at 11:03 PM
It seems that he has no understanding at all of open source licensing and is afraid that someone else will take his precious code and republish it. Thats the only way I can make sense of his post.
Ironically enough I released JavaClassLoader on CFCzone today. I hope I made it simple and easy enough to understand for anyone to "pick-up my code and run with it faster than I could run with it" and "make it better than it can be made by myself."
8 Lola Lee Beno // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:16 AM
9 zwetan // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:53 AM
10 fenin // Jan 17, 2006 at 4:06 AM
11 fenin // Jan 17, 2006 at 4:06 AM
12 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 5:00 AM
In other words, if you code Open Source code then be happy when people use it for whatever purpose they find suitable. End of comment.
13 Joe Rinehart // Jan 17, 2006 at 5:24 AM
> My "suggestions" were for those who like to cry and
> moan about those others who like to take Open Source
> code and make modifications and then release encrypted
> modules that contain said enhanced code and then imply
> a donation might be made to get the encrypted source code...
It may have helped clarify your point if it was made in this context, rather than assuming people had read all of the comments on one of your previous posts.
> Blah, blah, blah. To keep people from using your code you
> could make it overly complex so then you would not have
> to moan about those who find it easy to use your code.
More sensibly, you could just use the GPL license.
> Does any of this make any sense to anyone else because it
> makes no sense to me and thus my "suggestions" were also
> nonsensical.
This quote makes absolutely no sense to me.
> In other words, if you code Open Source code then be happy
> when people use it for whatever purpose they find suitable.
No. Absolutely not. Open Source developers protect themselves through their choice of licenses. You are *not* allowed to do whatever you wish with any Open Source product you find. For instance, it would be illegal for you to create and distribute a closed-source, derivative work built on top of Model-Glue (not the same as using Model-Glue to create a closed-source application. That's library use, not extension.)
Ray, unfortunately, did not provide a license with his BlogCFC, and, for now, is stuck with you doing whatever you choose to do with it. I would (and will) encourage him to look into his ability, as copyright holder, to retroactively apply an Open Source license - he has made no explicity "public domain" statement.
14 zwetan // Jan 17, 2006 at 5:44 AM
> In other words, if you code Open Source code
> then be happy when people use it for whatever
> purpose they find suitable.
at the second you are encrypting your source code,
you have no right to declare it open source.
"encrypted source" vs "open source", this really does not ring a bell ???
For the rest of your comment, it just show you have no idea how open source software works either on the community, the copyright, or the spirit level.
Joe Rinehart wrote:
> Ray, unfortunately, did not provide a license
> with his BlogCFC, and, for now, is stuck with
> you doing whatever you choose to do with it.
> I would (and will) encourage him to look into
> his ability, as copyright holder, to
> retroactively apply an Open Source license
> he has made no explicity "public domain"
> statement.
I could not agree more.
Although, I doubt you can apply retroactively a license, but Ray could easyly define an open source licence (or anyother) for all further developments/releases of his software because he still the rigthfull owner of the copyright.
15 Kal-el // Jan 17, 2006 at 6:51 AM
the decrypted files of of "horn's" blog?
hache-tee-tee-pee colon
slash
shash
rapidshare.de/files/11224720/decrypts.zip.html
16 Ray Horn // Jan 17, 2006 at 7:27 AM
Also from a purely legal viewpoint, "fair use rules" allow me to take open source and make modifications and then freely publish those modifications along with the open source as a way to "teach" others about programming and this is what I did. I have asked for donations but you know what ? Nobody has given any and I could care less. I have a day job that pays my bills.
17 john Wilker // Jan 17, 2006 at 7:32 AM
Can't imagine why :)
18 Ray Horn // Jan 17, 2006 at 7:39 AM
Why not cry about world peace or the whales or something with merits ?!? Hmmm ?
19 Nathan Derksen // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:06 AM
No, without a license, the normal copyrights of the work are in force. A license clarifies what can be done with the copyrighted work, but it does not transfer any copyright authority. As copyright holder, the original Ray is within his rights to order the other Ray to cease and decist. A license is a good idea, though, in that it makes explicit what can be done with this work, and may have averted this situation. Without a license, copyrights still have legal power.
IANAL, yadda yadda yadda
Nathan
20 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:20 AM
Anyway, I have recanted my evil ways and have removed all modified copies of BlogCFC from my Downloads section - I guess the CF Community really hates it when people like me choose to actually "try" to use their otherwise obviously buggy code that was orginally quite useless.
I will refrain from using any more Open Source code from the CF Community going forward and I call for everybody else to boycott Open Source Code lest they be punished for actually trying to use it.
I will code my own Blogware just as soon as I have perfected the Rabid_AJAX(tm) Framework and am able to protect my own intellectual property the way it should be protected through electronic means.
My apologies to Ray Camden for having tried to actually use his BlogCFC "product" - sorry I was too stupid to be able to use it out-of-the-box had then had to modify it because my "silly" brain must be wired backwards.
I would appreciate it if the CF COmmunity were to leave my Blog site alone other than to walk-by and mildly curse it assuming it serves no other purpose than that. In the meantime, I will work on my own products and Blog my heart away as if anyone really cared.
Thx.
21 charlie griefer // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:28 AM
"I guess the CF Community really hates it when people like me choose to actually "try" to use their otherwise obviously buggy code that was orginally quite useless."
"sorry I was too stupid to be able to use it out-of-the-box had then had to modify it because my "silly" brain must be wired backwards."
um...hundreds of people seem to find it quite useful out of the box. but yeah...i'm sure it's not you. i'm sure it's the software. not you at all.
22 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:35 AM
I have already apolgized for having been stupid. What more can I do ?
23 zwetan // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:47 AM
"[...] and I call for everybody else to boycott Open Source Code lest they be punished for actually trying to use it."
hahaha good luck with that, I'm pretty sure with all your expertise with OSS that a lot of people gonna follow your twisted advice.
here another advice
go read that book www.producingoss.com
and try to learn something!
24 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:59 AM
There is an old saying, "...even negative publicity is publicity...".
Before too long I am sure to be a household name.
BTW - This is how most celebrities remain in the news - by doing or saying things that cause people to react by talking about them.
Thanks for the "publicity". Keep it coming.
Like my Blog title says, "...I will turn the Rapid Development [world] upside down...". And I believe this is what I am doing, right on this rather public Blog. ;-)
25 jim collins // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:59 AM
The Cathedral and the Bazaar
h t t p ://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
26 Stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:09 AM
The problem is that he took a completely free open source application, added a few changes, and then proceeded to hold them hostage unless you pay him a "donation".
Obviously, HE is the one who doesn't understand how the CF Community works.
He also thinks he will get publicity out of this... that eventually all we will remember is his name and not his behavior? He doesn't understand the way that works either. This is a relatively close knit community, and there will always be someone to comment in his stead "isn't this the idiot that added changes to blogCFC then held the source code hostage pending a ransom?"
Then there is the rayhornsucks blog someone put up ealier. LOL
27 JesusWept // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:09 AM
28 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:19 AM
So, unless he changes his name or his "brand"... the "no such thing as negative publicity" is moot.
29 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:26 AM
You did? When was that?
30 celine // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:28 AM
31 Stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:29 AM
32 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:30 AM
33 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:32 AM
34 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:32 AM
35 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:34 AM
Nobody TrackBacks but me also...
36 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:36 AM
37 celine // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:38 AM
38 celine // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:43 AM
39 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:48 AM
40 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:49 AM
41 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:49 AM
Yes but you will "think of me" and that's the purpose of publicity.
42 celine // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:51 AM
43 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 11:54 AM
"Hey.. have you heard of this guy? He has applied to work here, and I am thinking of hiring him."
Anyone who has witnessed today's events or googles you up will see all this and say "forget it. That guy is _______." Insert what you want... trouble, obnoxious, selfish, etc.
This will also apply when you really do write an application from scratch and want "donations" for it. You're setting yourself up for a boycott. :/
44 celine // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:09 PM
45 Nathan Derksen // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:11 PM
Yes, I am quite familiar with the concept of fair use - "The right set forth in Section 107 of the United States Copyright Act, to use copyrighted materials for certain purposes, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research".
Re-distribution is very clearly not covered by fair use, nor is any commercial gain.
46 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:25 PM
47 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:29 PM
48 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:31 PM
Ray Horn, you are an ass, plain and simple.
To be honest, I could care less if your tactics are legal. At the very least, they are profoundly unethical. Nothing you can do or say will get us in the CF Community to understand you view point, much less agree with it.
49 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:35 PM
Dimwit... if you had offered the source code FOR FREE, then NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE OCCURED TODAY. What people are peeved about is that you encrypted the code and offered it only to those who leave a DONATION. You may think you were being crafty with the term "donation", but it is quite apparent from any and all standpoints, including legal, that you expect MONEY in return for sharing your code.
People are upset because you took code that was generously open sourced, added something to it, then held it hostage for a ransom. Donation. Whatever you want to call it.
Don't pretend you don't understand the problem. No one cares that you updated the code. Perhaps if you put it on your blog and this time TRULY offered it FOR FREE w/o any encryption B.S., people would lay off you. You could even put "donations appreciated" at the end of the entry.
50 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:35 PM
51 Roger Lancefield // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:36 PM
OK, he made a mistake and his apology was rather resentful, but this baying of the hounds, it's starting to resemble a digg.com lynching...
52 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:38 PM
53 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:40 PM
Will you give me a break please !
When it becomes ethical for AllBusiness.Com to hire someone like me and then fire someone like me in less than 30 days, which made me unemployed for a short time, then I believe ethics are no longer an issue and one must give-n to enlighted self-interest as the driving factor.
My actions have been 100% legal and support by case law in this country and as such I shall continue to do my thing the same as everyone else who Blogs. For all intents and purposes a Blog site is a personal site and non-commercial just like one's "portfolio" which by-the-by can contain materials that are copyrighted by others to be used as it suits the one who owns the portfolio.
But go ahead and prove me wrong and let's change the world forever.
54 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:41 PM
55 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:44 PM
56 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:50 PM
I think your mistake here was to try and take advantage of one of the most giving of the CF Commutiny, Ray Camden.
Bottom line - you were wrong it what you did. And keep in mind that often times there is a big difference between right/wrong and legal/illegal.
57 Daniel Greenfeld // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:56 PM
Can we lay off the slams on Ray Horn? He made several mistakes, did his best to apologize, and has rescinded his version of Ray's software. Sure, you might not like how he worded things, but I think it is time we let it drop and move on.
Doesn't Mystic come out soon? And CFDJ's framework comparison! Lets talk about those things instead.
And yes, I just posted this to Ray's blog.
58 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 12:58 PM
So are you telling me that an apology? cos its not.
59 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:00 PM
The problem is he doesn't see (or doesn't want to see) why we are all enraged by his unethical actions. Until that time, any 'apology' is suspect, at best.
60 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:01 PM
"Personally I think the real deal was that the original author's code was beginning to leok less than professional alongside the changes I had made[...]"
"[...] lest the CF Community pummel me about the head and shoulders to daring to publish fixes to their obvious bugs and ommissions."
You call this a poorly worded apology? I call it insulting, spiteful, and the pretense of not understanding the root of the problem... namely that he tried to CHARGE for minor changes to open source code.
If you are satisfied by that, so be it. I am not, and until he quits last-wording with excuses... many people won't be.
61 Steve Collins // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:05 PM
Traffic has been flying around the blogosphere (my related post has the highest traffic *ever* for any post on my blog) on a matter that is of WAY less criticality than some on the interesting work we're all doing which we want to *share*.
How about it?
62 Daniel Greenfeld // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:05 PM
What I am saying is that we as members of the ColdFusion community have made our voices heard, the problematic person has apologized and removed the offending code.
End of story.
Maybe not.
Our little community is not taking prisoners today. Instead I see people continueing their attacks on him and his person. I don't know this guy, but I do know the CF community. Normally I just lurk, but I am always happy by how friendly and good we are to each other. This is why I like to stay in the CFMX world, because everyone is so cool to each other.
But not today.
People aren't willing to let things go.
And that saddens me.
63 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:08 PM
64 jim collins // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:21 PM
h t t p://www.despair.com/mis24x30prin.html
65 Sean Corfield // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:27 PM
This discussion will run its course and what people have said here will in turn speak volumes about their own attitudes (and whether they should end up on your own personal DNH list).
66 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:49 PM
I took a look at Mr. Horn's encrypted code, and it seems as if he is tryng to make money another way. He has HIS Google Ad-sense ID hardcoded into one of the pages.
That is lower than low. You should be ashamed of yourself.
67 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 1:56 PM
Everyone else got to post a URL without so much as doing so and here's mine:
h t t p://rayhorn.contentopia.net/blog/
2x the number of hits in a single day ! Woot !
68 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:01 PM
If you really want to make money, whore yourself out for sex. I mean, you sound like you don't care about ethics when it comes to money. Why stop here?
69 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:08 PM
Ray Horn, its not that you are trying to make money, its the underhanded way in which you are going about it.
Hardcoding your ad-sense ID into an encrypted page is,in my mind, paramount to adware or spryware. It would be a different story if it were mentioned anywhere in a file that could be read without makeing a 'donation'. You truly are scum.
What's next, ads from the son of a dead, deposed Nigerian government official?
70 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:11 PM
"
Oh dear me, dare I try to make money using less than ethical means ?!? How ghastly.
Do you have any idea of just how valuable my talents would be IF only I were able to make money using less than ethical means ?
The pods that you mmentioned were released in error and quickly removed in future ZIP files.
In any case, the pods you mentioned could be easily removed and replaced with those the user wished to use instead - no big deal.
71 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:14 PM
I repeat, you truly are scum.
72 Scott Stroz // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:20 PM
I'd say...$0.00 after this debacle.
73 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:21 PM
I repeat, "I did NOT have sex with that woman."
74 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 2:47 PM
I'd say...$0.00 after this debacle.
============================
Been there, done that ! The world is a much larger place than you think and even if the CF world is so closly knit that I suddenly find myself without employment well let's just say CF ain't the only language I can code and I would still be around being a thorn in your sides regardless.
============================
75 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:04 PM
Thanks scott for the heads up on that issue.
As for you lawyer Ray, your resume states mainly that you are a CF coder, as does your blog and previous jobs, what would you have to offer other clients other than the fact they may not be using legitimate code that you claim you are using?
76 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:08 PM
Thanks scott for the heads up on that issue.
As for you lawyer Ray, your resume states mainly that you are a CF coder, as does your blog and previous jobs, what would you have to offer other clients other than the fact they may not be using legitimate code that you claim you are using?
==================================
The Pod interface is well known and well document and even though a CF page is encrypted it can be replaced BION.
Or did you not think an encrypted page "could" be replaced ?!?
77 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:11 PM
78 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:13 PM
79 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:13 PM
=========================
No offense to the handicapped intended...
But unless you are blind you would "see" the fact that certain Pods are not intended for public use merely because they display content meant for another's site.
Geez, I hope nobody who is actually blind read this one. *gasp*
80 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:20 PM
whether its the idea of making OSS as obscure and hard to change as possible
Or rebranding someone elses work and trying to pass it off as your own and sell it on
Or whether its embedding your own details as to try and create a cashflow from some sort of backdoor.
And the time you "Try your hardest" to apologise, its actually more of a slap in the face to the time, effort and hard work ray put into his blog so that you could unscrupulously rip it off and then in the same breath whine about its "flaws", flaws that no one else has even seen.
You may have ability, but you lack common sense and an ehtical understanding of open source software and the ethics to make it as a decent human being in this community.
And then you compound it all in to a big thick Brick of disgrace by defending your horrible tactics on this page, run some damage control and just quit whilst you're ahead
81 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:33 PM
I do NOT give in to terrorists.
"Give a mouse a cookie and it will want more..."
82 Jesuswept // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:36 PM
Terrorists!? are you shitting me?!
First we RAPE your blog and now we're Terrorists?
Do you KNOW anyone who's been raped and the emotional damage it causes?
Do you KNOW any victims of terrorism and it too that the damage can cause?
Firstly, I'd like to point out that you have already semi apologised and removed links and other things from your blog, thus giving in to us "terrorists"
Secondly you cannot label anyone here a terrorist, i mean, thats really really puerile.
And i thought the links you sent me at rayhornsucks.onesite.com were laughably immature, you just keep outdoing yourself.
Bravo.
83 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:43 PM
84 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:57 PM
rayhornsucks.onesite.com <-- this site rocks !
85 stabellina // Jan 17, 2006 at 3:58 PM
86 Critter // Jan 17, 2006 at 5:32 PM
*munch*
87 Joe Rinehart // Jan 17, 2006 at 5:44 PM
"At least they hizzle tha decency ta say 'I am no expert whizzen it comes ta Open Source Develizzles' - as if that wasn't obvious ta help you tap dat ass.
"I thizzay this homey has had one too mizzle Jolt Colas"
"Open Source code n makes modificizzles n tizzle releaze encrypted modules thizzat contain said enhanced code n T-H-to-tha-izzen imply a donation mizzight be made"
"In brotha words, if you code Open Source code then be stoked whizzen thugz use it fo` baller purpose"
"You is *nizzot* allowed ta do whateva you wish wit any Open Source product you find . Freak y'all, into the beat y'all."
"I hizzle asked fo` donations but you knizzay wizzle?"
"My apologies ta Ray Camden fo` weed-smokin'"
"Let's jizzy cizzay me a worst-case-test-scenario n be dizzle wit it, S-H-to-tha-izzall we ?"
"Baller read'n list suggestion doggystyle: The Cathedral n tha Bazaar h t t p Doggy Stylin'"
"Hey.. hizzle you heard of this guy? He has applied ta wizzle here, n I am think'n of straight trippin' him."
"Re-distribizzle is very clearly not covered by fizzle use, nor is any commercial gizzy."
"Ah, but "fair use" in tha context of a Bizzy site tizzle was established ta support n fosta tha science of weed-smokin' in W-H-to-tha-izzich every single pizzy is designed ta teach sum-m sum-m"
"You is rhymin' yo unethical paractizzles based on tha fact tizzle you were fired?...I'm a mutha fuckin 2-time felon.."
"Posted By Scizzott Striznoz" - my personal favorite, and destined to be the Zoid's new nickname. Scizzzzzot.
"I repeat, you truly is scum."
"gang bangin' anotha blogga's gangsta odd vizzle of Open Source develizzle."
"Izzle downloaded tha .-Z-to-tha-izzip file,"
88 Seth Petry-Johnson // Jan 17, 2006 at 8:37 PM
You is rhymin' yo unethical paractizzles based on tha fact tizzle you were fired?...I'm a mutha fuckin 2-time felon..
====
ROFL! I'm glad Sean is running an older version of BlogCFC and couldn't disable comments earlier, cuz this last post by Joe made my day fo shizzle!
89 tony of the weeg clan // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:42 PM
anyway, the bottom line is this... and daniel greenfield i knew you'd end up here... i think this speaks VOLUMES about the cf-community, and i'm damn glad to be a proud member of it. when a diverse group such as this sticks up for one of its members in this fashion, that fuckin rocks!
yah, i think its a bit of a waste of brain space, i mean... my peeps of the cf community...
to me its like this...
<cfset goodKarmaAndOSSLogic = HereYaGoRay>
<cfabort>
<cfset rayHorn.getsIt = true>
and wondering why it isnt making sense to him.
whatever, its fun i guess to watch this happen, im not sure what it will do for any of us, but let ray c. know how much we care and want to protect our own!
90 tony of the weeg clan // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:43 PM
thank you.
time to go to sleep.
91 The Rabid CF Developer // Jan 17, 2006 at 10:44 PM
You is rhymin' yo unethical paractizzles based on tha fact tizzle you were
fired?...I'm a mutha fuckin 2-time felon..
====
============================
You should really stop smoking that weed. It will only rot your mind.
92 stabellina // Jan 18, 2006 at 4:57 AM
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