An Architect's View

37 responses so far ↓

• 1 Mike Tangorre // Jul 29, 2005 at 8:17 AM

  WOW. Not sure what to say other than the fact I still don't know what the big hype about MySpace is; the site is nothing special. On top of that, New Atlanta needs to get its shit together if they ever intend to become a viable alternative. The fact that the "MySpace" details keep changing, etc sounds like a lot of nonsense to me and continued reason to not really look into their product(s).
  
  

• 2 Nathan Strutz // Jul 29, 2005 at 10:02 AM

  Mike, although you don't see all the hoopla about MySpace, the fact remains it is one of the most popular sites on the net right now, and the most popular CF site. As for the details continuing to change and change and change, it's my understanding that their programming methodology is all cowboys vs managers. I'm not surprised that they don't have all their stuff together.

• 3 Jeff // Jul 29, 2005 at 10:04 AM

  Mike, I agree MySpace is nothing special from a technical standpoint. But, it was succesful from a marketing standpoint; it got a solid, specific userbase and is serving up a billion ads a day. I'm flabbergasted that a company can make money on Internet Ads in the Post-Dot-Com era.
  
  Sean, I was under the impression that MySpace had hundreds of servers. A deployment over the course of multiple months does not surprise me. During the keynote, the MySpace guy stated that different servers address different sections of the site, so I bet they are migrating on a section by section basis over time.

• 4 Jim // Jul 29, 2005 at 1:10 PM

  I'm sure there would be issues moving from CF5 to MX as well.

• 5 Nathan Strutz // Jul 29, 2005 at 3:03 PM

  There would be issues moving to any new server, so you make your code match and apply, right? How much more difficult is it? Could it be that some of the site refuses to run on BD.NET, or possibly that they have no intentions to convert parts of their site, or what if they just have too many servers and no way to centrally manage or silently install BD?

• 6 Sami Hoda // Jul 29, 2005 at 3:13 PM

  I don't think I can say much that hasn't been said already about mySpace. I have a friend who works there, and let's just say its not a pretty sight.
  
  I knew at CFUnited, what was touted as a "marriage" of BlueDragon and mySpace, was just in fact a simple "engagement", nothing more. Plus, it will take more than moving to BlueDragon to help the "cowboys" there. Their programming is said to be full of duplication and "spaghetti" patches, and their scaling incomplete (see horizontal vs vertical scaling). Frankly, their obsession with speed and adding more servers, is a large part of their problem. Their technical issues are a symptom of much bigger problem, their process.
  
  That's why a lot of good, and often quiet, programmers have commented on this. It just smells bad, because the clues are all there.

• 7 Jared Rypka-Hauer // Jul 29, 2005 at 8:53 PM

  It's always nice to know that your instincts are accurate.
  
  And that's all I have to say.

• 8 Jim // Jul 29, 2005 at 9:11 PM

  I think it's unfair to dismiss BlueDragon due to poor practices at mySpace. I'd probably fire a few people in NewAtlanta's marketing department though - they should have come out with this announcement AFTER the switch was 100%.

• 9 Mike Tangorre // Jul 29, 2005 at 9:18 PM

  I think it's fair to dismiss BD until they can make a better effort at winning over the CF community. BD and New Atlanta just seem to be more trouble than they are worth.

• 10 Roger Benningfield // Jul 29, 2005 at 10:25 PM

  Mike: "...the site is nothing special."
  
  Half a billion dollars and the rapt attention of every youth-oriented marketer in the U.S. says otherwise.
  
  Hell, I'd be happy to be that non-special for a paltry million or two. Dear Media Conglomerates... give me a call.

• 11 Mike Tangorre // Jul 29, 2005 at 11:46 PM

  Nothing special as in, does not appeal to me. In fact up until the initial mention by New Atlanta I never even heard of them! I was not alone either... many other people never heard of them either. I know that just because I never heard of them doesn't mean anything, all I am saying is that I don't see what the big fuss is about... it's a big portal site. Great.
  
  Sure the services the site offers to people are good, especially for the younger crowd, but the design, layout, colors, etc... all stink!
  
  Oh well. Just goes to show you, you don't have to have the best coded, best looking, nor best architecture behind your site to make a million bucks. Go figure.
  
  

• 12 Carl Young // Jul 30, 2005 at 9:18 AM

  The opinion that the MySpace site is not a big deal may be true from an advanced developers p.o.v. But for me, a novice manager/developer, I'm trying to show my organization that CF is a good path to take. Sites like MySpace.com and shop.vodofone.co.uk add good wieght to my argument. I've got opposing views from Java coders who are sure that CF is for kids and summarily dismiss it. So the larger and more popular the CF site is the more evidence you and the CF community are not just playing with kids stuff.
  
  

• 13 Mike Tangorre // Jul 30, 2005 at 10:05 AM

  In what ways do those sites add weight to your argument?

• 14 Sami Hoda // Jul 30, 2005 at 10:21 AM

  As a side note, I hope people do know that mySpace was bought out by Fox this week (News Corp, i.e. Rupert Murdoch)... who knows what direction they will take now!

• 15 Jeff // Jul 30, 2005 at 10:22 AM

  If it works for them, then it must work for us!
  
  It's not a technical argument, of course. I find that the "status quo" argument works better on manager-folk than specific technical reasons. (Whether right or wrong).
  
  Mike, what would you like to see New Atlanta do to win over the CF community? What efforts do you think they've made, and how are they faulty?
  
  

• 16 M. Schopman // Aug 1, 2005 at 1:56 AM

  Fyi, it took us several developers and at least 2 months of hard work to convert CF5 applications to CFMX6.1 applications. There are numerous changes not being documented at all, involving the way structs are handled (sorting, overwriting, default actions etc.) and like alot of others we went through alot of stability tuning to prevent the server from running at 99% cpu usage with a fully patched box.
  
  I think we could have saved us alot of time and money if we, at that moment immediately switched to BlueDragon on .NET instead of upgrading to CFMX6.1. We should have took those few BlueDragon incompatibilities for granted.
  
  But we have learned from this for the future.

• 17 Rey Bango // Aug 1, 2005 at 9:00 PM

  Hi Sean. Its great to see that MM is right on top of the MySpace migration and ever vigilant to the project's progress. Apparently, though, they weren't this vigilant when MySpace was a customer. Otherwise, they might've been able to prevent the migration to BlueDragon for .Net in the first place.
  
  For all of your negative comments about BD's compatibility with ColdFusion 5.0, I can attest to plenty of incompatabilities between versions of the ColdFusion application server line that drove me nuts, dating back to version 4.0. At least back then Allaire was on top of things and released fixes in short order.
  
  I was also priveleged enough to have participated in a 2 month code tweaking marathon just to be able to get legacy 3.x, 4.x and 5.x code running correctly on CFMX 6.1. And that was code that was deployed on 50 servers (no small site). I'm surprised that someone with your experience would diminish the complexities of converting over a major site to a different platform especially knowing the migration problems associated with both past and current versions of ColdFusion itself.
  
  My suggestion to you and everyone else at MM is to focus on actually talking to your clients and ensuring that they're happy as opposed to worrying about whether the MySpace migration is moving along. Say all you want about New Atlanta but as I've stated before, they're more responsive then MM has ever been and when bugs are found, their clients don't have to wait 6 months for a hotfix.
  
  At the end of the day, MySpace will be completely and successfully migrated to BlueDragon for .Net and you'll be able to read about it on my blog.

• 18 Dctrwho // Aug 11, 2005 at 12:50 PM

  Rey, I have to say that was well said.

• 19 Matthew // Aug 11, 2005 at 3:26 PM

  Sounds like Sean was merely commenting on the fact that New Atlanta touted the conversion as being done and much simpler that it was!
  
  Rey, by the end of what day? :-)

• 20 Rey Bango // Aug 11, 2005 at 3:46 PM

  Hi Matthew. I'm under NDA so I really can't discuss it but just keep an eye on my blog and you'll find out. :-)

• 21 Sean Corfield // Aug 11, 2005 at 7:43 PM

  Rey, can you remind people of the URL for your blog?
  
  And can we assume that you're under NDA with New Atlanta and therefore engaged by them in some business relationship, hence your jumping to their defence every time someone criticizes them? I know, you can't tell us because of the NDA... :)
  

• 22 Rey Bango // Aug 11, 2005 at 10:13 PM

  Sure Sean. Its www.reybango.com. I read yours often so hopefully you'll come over and do the same.
  
  As for coming to their defense, I just believe that they produce a quality product and have better support than your employer does. I also see them being more attentive to developers. I like to support people that actually pay attention to developers.
  
  Considering the content of this original blog posting and who your employer is, all I have to say is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
  
  Cya...

• 23 Sean Corfield // Aug 11, 2005 at 10:19 PM

  Rey, you side-stepped the question: are you in a business relationship with New Atlanta?
  
  I make no bones about being employed by Macromedia - and I criticize the company as its products as I see fit (this is not an official Macromedia blog). I'll also praise and defend where I see fit. I've covered BlueDragon extensively in my blog - both positive and negative.
  

• 24 Rey Bango // Aug 11, 2005 at 10:25 PM

  I didn't think you were actually serious about that but to answer your question, my NDA extends to their products and information that they pass on to me. So, no, I am not in a business relationship with them nor am I employed by them. So hopefully my previous posting here will give you a better indication of my motivations.
  
  I'll be up for awhile so feel free to reply. :o)

• 25 Sean Corfield // Aug 11, 2005 at 10:30 PM

  But then your NDA is no more and no less than what you would expect beta testers to be covered by. It seems you are being unnecessarily mysterious about your involvement with MySpace (you invoked NDA rather than answer Matthew's question about it).
  
  I'm sure we'd all like to get to the truth here...

• 26 Rey Bango // Aug 11, 2005 at 10:37 PM

  As I said, my NDA covers any information that is shared to me by the folks at New Atlanta. There's no mystery to that. It was the same type of arrangement that I had when I was a member of Team Allaire. I received plenty of information from Alliare back then on products, companies they were involved with, & projects they were building but couldn't discuss it because I was under NDA. You've been around for awhile Sean. You should know what's usually covered by NDAs. If you're that curious about whats going on with MySpace, just buzz Vince at New Atlanta. He might even offer you a job. ;o)

• 27 Sean Corfield // Aug 11, 2005 at 11:15 PM

  "If you're that curious about whats going on with MySpace, just buzz Vince at New Atlanta. He might even offer you a job. ;o)"
  
  Oh I'm sure Vince is watching... care to pipe up, Vince?

• 28 Rey Bango // Aug 12, 2005 at 12:20 AM

  Its on sale Sean. ;o)
  
  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/6304708793/103-3485658-4583822

• 29 Jennifer Larkin // Aug 15, 2005 at 7:49 PM

  Rey, I really don't care what NDA you're under. Stating that you can't tell people what's really going on because you're under NDA is so unconvincing that it looks like a cheap way to avoid digging yourself into a bigger hole. And you still haven't answered Sean's question about whether or not New Atlanta is paying you; perhaps that's covered by your NDA. :)
  
  It was a bad example and the attempts to defend the example have been convincing people who didn't even attend that it was a bad example. The behavior of some New Atlanta defenders since the lecture has been shameful, manipulative, deceitful, presumptive, and quite frankly, insulting.
  
  It was a bad example. Everyone should know that by now. Someone needs to own up to it so people can move on. The bad publicity can not be fixed by this continuing attempt to defend this example and insult anyone who disagrees. That only convinces people that your motives are bad and since many already think New Atlanta is trying to con them, that is NOT a good move.

• 30 Rey Bango // Aug 15, 2005 at 8:35 PM

  Jennifer, you can perceive it whichever way you want. Perhaps one day, you'll get to be involved in something that requires an NDA and then you'll know what they're about and the contractual obligations behind them.
  
  As for your compensation remark, if you would've taken the time to actually read my posts you would've seen this "So, no, I am not in a business relationship with them nor am I employed by them." If that's too high level for you to understand, I'll break it down. I'm not getting paid by them in any way. Feel better?
  
  If you want more details and a better perspective of who is actually skewing the facts and being deceitful, feel free to go on CF-Talk where this same discussion is pushing forward and Vince is addressing things up quite nicely.

• 31 Jennifer Larkin // Aug 15, 2005 at 8:47 PM

  And that was yet another example of what I'm talking about. "Maybe someday when [I'm] involved in so,mething that requires an NDA...." Well, now, aren't you special? I'm so impressed that you are involved in something so important that it requires an NDA, something that I am not special enough to have ever had to sign.
  
  Well, maybe it would be more convincing if I hadn't already been under at least 5 NDAs from Macromedia alone.
  
  It's sad that your response was to first imply that Sean should know what an NDA covers (even though each NDA covers different things), but then to state outright that I haven't ever signed one? Hence, you being presumptive.
  
  I've taken contract law and I've signed plenty of NDAs, but I actually read them. That's how I know that the terms of NDAs are different from one to another. Hence, you being presumptive AND insulting. Perhaps in the future you might want to check someone's resume before assuming things about them. My legal training is on my resume and as are several other things which would clearly require an NDA.
  
  I've seen Vince's responses and they have convinced me that this was a bad example. I had heard rumors but until I read his responses I wasn't willing to say in print that it was a bad example. He can try to keep convincing people but it is backfiring. Don't assume that because this is one of the two places that I've responded to this, that I'm uninformed or unqualified to make a response.

• 32 Rey Bango // Aug 15, 2005 at 9:04 PM

  Jennifer, the one that's being insulting is you. To quote: "The behavior of some New Atlanta defenders since the lecture has been shameful, manipulative, deceitful, presumptive, and quite frankly, insulting." Don't presume to know me, my intentions and definitely don't call me deceitful. I defend what I believe much in the same way that your defending your views right now.
  
  I believe in the guys from New Atlanta, their products and their potential and for this particular topic have chosen to side with them. If that's something that goes against your views, then fine. We'll sit here and debate it all night long.
  
  In the end though, the way you come across to me is the same exact way that I'll reply to you. You chose to take an aggressive and condescending position in your post to me and I chose to reply in kind.
  
  Further, since you understand what an NDA means, then I would expect you to understand that there's certain things you can't discuss.
  
  

• 33 Rey Bango // Aug 15, 2005 at 9:14 PM

  Jennifer, this isn't worth debating anymore. You've got your views and I have mine. You obviously feel I'm being "deceitful and manipulative" and I really don't care for being lumped into those categories. I should've just nipped this at the moment you made those comments because it was obvious that there was no point in replying. Believe what you want and support whom you feel is looking out for your interests. Take care.

• 34 Jennifer Larkin // Aug 15, 2005 at 9:53 PM

  Yes, Rey, there are certain things that you can't discuss, and they have no place in an argument. If you can't discuss something, you can't use it as an argument. You certainly shouldn't use it as an argument while implying that if everyone were as special as you that they would been granted the priveledge of receiving an NDA.
  
  If you go back and read my post carefully, you will see that not only did I not say that you were guilty of this behavior in my first comment, I didn't even *imply* it. I specifically said that the behavior of some New Atlanta supporters on this issue acted in a specific list of ways, then you immediately acted at least two of those ways. I never even implied that you acted more than two of those ways. Granted, I detected your behavior and set the trap, but you fell for it. Perhaps you've learned something.
  
  As I already stated, next time, know who you are arguing against. Also, don't insult my intelligence or the intelligence of my friends; it makes me cranky and you apparently don't like me that way. It's generally a bad idea to insult the intelligence of people that you are trying to convince, and that is part of the problem with the example in question.
  
  I'm assuming that you are abandoning this argument because you know you proved me right. That's fine. Doesn't bother me a bit. As for the argument itself, I'm not uninformed and I've taken a side based on comments both from spectators and New Atlanta supporters.
  
  The problem with this example is that people think it's deceitful. You can argue all you like but that doesn't change that people think it's deceitful. It's way past time to justify and into time to rectify. The current business strategy is not working because it's ticking people off. Ticking people off is not good business strategy. Period. End of story.
  
  It's also not usually a good way to argue. It can be pulled off sometimes but only in very specific cases, such as arguing with smug, presumptious people who think you are stupid and don't look before they leap.

• 35 Rey Bango // Aug 15, 2005 at 10:04 PM

  No, I choose to abandon this discussion because its pointless to continue a debate when both parties have clearly made up their minds. At this point, it wouldn't matter what anyone said. You have your perceptions and thats that.

• 36 Sean Corfield // Aug 15, 2005 at 11:21 PM

  Rey, it seems that far from abandoning this discussion you seem determined to have the last word?
  

• 37 Jennifer Larkin // Aug 15, 2005 at 11:44 PM

  Jared said that he didn't like me being all "neener neener" and I think that's justified. I was being overly catty and that was wrong of me, so for that I apologize.

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